From Corporate VP to Horse Farmer: What Made Him Walk Away?

00:09
Welcome to the Freedom of Enough podcast.  I'm Kim Patten,  author of Pivot and your host.  This is a place for honest conversations about what it really means to build a life that is true to ourselves.  Because we don't have to earn our worth.  We are already enough.  Let's discover what enough looks like starting now.

00:42
My guest today is John Connors.  John spent four decades climbing the corporate ladder and eventually became a vice president. Then he did something most people don't expect. He bought a horse farm. But what interested me was not the horse farm itself, it was what led him there. Like a lot of people, John reached a point where he started asking bigger questions about work, purpose.

01:08
and what comes after you have achieved the goals you've been chasing for years. Today, we're going to talk about that journey, a concept he calls mind burn and what he's learned about finding direction when you're not exactly sure what's next.

01:25
Hey John, welcome to the show. Hey Kim, good to see you. Yeah, so when I first came across your story, I thought it was going to be about VP who left corporate life to run a horse farm. But the more I read,  I realized it's really a story about figuring out what's next when you already accomplished a lot. So you write about reinvention,  something you call mind burn and finding direction without feeling everything needing to be figured out first.

01:54
And I think a lot of people can relate to that.  So let's start with the horse farm. So you spent 40 years in corporate leadership, eventually becoming a VP. And then now you're running a horse farm. How did that happen?  Well, first of all, horses came about because of my wife. That's often how horses come into the world. She's been around horses for about 40 years. I got more involved in horses about 10, 15 years ago.

02:20
About seven years ago, we bought a small horse farm in the suburb of Cleveland, and it was great because we could have the horses in the backyard. We didn't have to board them someplace.  And that meant that I had to take care of the chores. I had to help out with the barn. And I didn't really know much about horses until I started spending time with them.  And like a lot of folks that get experience with horses, they're scary to begin with, right? Because there's this creature that you might be 150, 200 pounds. Well, they're 1500 pounds and you look up to them.

02:48
But it turns out they are some of the gentlest creatures on earth and some of the most empathetic and just over time as I became more comfortable with them and understood them more, I just really grew to appreciate them. That is very neat.  So tell us more about what you learned from the horse. You say that they're the most gentle creatures.  Tell us more about what do you mean by that? So they're

03:11
incredibly empathetic. can sense human emotions perhaps better than humans can sometimes. And if you pay attention to their body language, they'll tell you what they're feeling and also how they're reacting to yours. So it taught me more about what paying attention to body language. And then also when, when a horse is getting upset about something, what's the source of the upset? And it may not be you, it might be something else. It might be that there's something in the corner of the barn they don't like.

03:39
Right. So how do you respond to that? How do you calm them down and be able to detach yourself from the moment to figure out what's going on with the horse to help it? Help me a lot in the corporate world, being able to say, right, I'm not going to get caught up in the emotion of this conversation, but what is it the person's really trying to say? So I think understanding EQ, right? There's IQ, EQ. I was heavy on the IQ and I think they really started teaching me more about the EQ side of things. Yeah. Our school doesn't really teach us about EQ. It teaches us about knowledge and

04:09
working hard, but it doesn't tell us emotional intelligence. How do we get better at that?  I, and I heard that horses, a lot of people use it as a therapy for emotional therapy. So that makes sense. I have not really personally being around horses, but now I feel like I have a little bit of understanding of why people like to be around them.

04:34
So tell me more about when you first feeling this next next chapter in your life might need to look different from the last one. When did you start feeling something needs to change?  Probably five or six years ago is when it started and it came about really when I had reached sort of the peak of my career and I was at a point I didn't really want to change companies again and go through all that proving myself process. I just just had no desire to do that.

05:04
But I found myself in a very senior job and largely just repeating the same year of experience over and over again. And so the learning stopped, the excitement stopped. And I think part of it also was the big piece of what I was doing was a lot of intense contract negotiations for buying IT software services hardware. And that's hard because it's almost like a daily battle that you go into. And I think it just started to wear me down and there was no learning taking place.

05:32
great people surrounding me. love the people. I would say that I miss the people. I don't miss the work now that I'm retired. And I think it was just the lack of learning.  Challenge and learning.  Literally every day was a fight. I was fighting with some vendor about something and it wears on you after a while.  I see. Yeah. the challenge is not coming with the feeling that you just don't...

05:59
you're just dragging to go to work almost feel like because also you just feeling tired from the battle sounds like because I heard an IT software negotiation job can be pretty glimmerous. Like people see it as high income.  Also you traveling or dine and wine the customer a lot, right? I assume is that kind of like that or how was your daily routine like?  So I was on the buying side. So the vendors would come to me.

06:25
And yeah, was like there was always someone trying to sell me something and, you know, all the different selling techniques and negotiating techniques and how to really get through all of that.  Some of the vendors figured out how to work with me and how we could structure a deal.  Others didn't and they really struggled with it.  yeah, was just, if I was learning anything, it was about different selling techniques and the countermeasures to those selling techniques on the buying side of things.

06:55
But yeah, so the average day with someone coming to me saying, Hey, here's a new 10 % price increase or Hey, here's a piece of software I have to have.  And then me trying to negotiate the best deal possible.  Okay. Yeah. That sounds like a very, very demanding job. So tell me more about from the outside. I'm sure like what I say, your career looks really successful. You had got to where you probably always want to get to, but you just feel like you don't want to keep climbing anymore.

07:23
You don't want to keep proving yourself anymore. So what was happening internally that people around you couldn't see at that time? Were you trying to hide it? when you, or you like already started stressing,  you want to take a slower in terms of your career, like what was that transition like at that time? So what people probably would have seen is that I would, instead of talking about deals or the work, if we had a casual moment, I would probably talk more about the horses or.

07:53
the rental property business that we built, a lot of people were curious about, about those outside of work activities.  The work stuff, when something came around, I would just, you know, I'd put the blinders on, I'd be engaged and we'd go for it. But again, it was executing things I already knew. So there wasn't a lot of thought to it. It was more muscle reflex going through these things.  So when I had a chance to step off the stage, if you will, people would see me talking more about things going on in my personal life. Something you're passionate about.

08:22
Sounds like that was something that really gets you very happy every day, bring you joy. That's what sounds like you're excited to talk about when during that process.  So I'm always curious when people go through a transition in terms of your retire now, and that sounds like it's by choice. Is it hard for you to tell people that you used to be a VP and now you're not like people used to look up and respect you at work. Now you like.

08:50
You know, transition for retiree is very difficult because I heard that people really miss being respected and people really want to see what you're saying. But then once that goes, even though your past identity is still a VP,  how, how did you feel when that no longer be your day in and day out title?

09:16
So I think you've hit on a great thing and I could go on for hours about that, especially with talking to some of my friends that have retired before me and I'm still in touch with them.  It is that, especially for folks in senior leadership positions, people definitely pay attention to you more, but it's not you they're paying attention to, it's the position. And what I've seen is those folks that have been most successful separated themselves from their role. They didn't define themselves as their role.

09:44
For example, I wouldn't go into a room and introduce myself as a VP. I'm just John in the IT department is what I would say. So that was part of it. But I think also because we had built a real estate business, there also was this role where I had some importance because I was the landlord. So there was some element of that. And that was part of the bridge that I built coming out of this.  It is definitely hard. You go from someone, I I was very highly placed in the organization I retired from.

10:14
and you go from people listen to you and weird experience walking down the hall, people know who you are, but you don't know who they are. That's a really disorienting they all wanna talk to you.  Exactly. And then suddenly you're just another guy in a line at the grocery store and no one cares who your story is.  So part of it is being able to separate yourself from the role, to not identify you as who you are. I'm John, I'm a dad. When I'm not...

10:40
doing something, I'm probably shoveling manure in the barn about as humble a job as you can possibly get. And I think that's sort of down to earth thing.  So being able to say, some of my friends that had their identity tied coupled very tightly to who they were in their job, they struggled more and some of them still struggle. Those that were able to separate who they were as a person from the work they did to bring money in,  they've been able to separate and walk away.

11:09
I don't miss it. I was actually having a discussion with my wife the other day. I don't miss the work at all. Some of the people I stay in contact with, yes. Another thing that was interesting is you have friends at work. You very quickly find out who the real friends are. I had dozens of friends at work. I have three that I'm still in tight contact with.  And so there's work friends and there's real friends. And you find out who separate that. And that's a bit disorienting too. Oh, I agree. Yeah.  I feel the same way after I left my career.

11:39
I totally can see like there are people that you thought you're really close to at work. And once you left there immediately that connection is not there. Suddenly there's no connection at all. And then there's people that you can connect with outside of work. And even when you didn't have the title anymore, they still care and respect you. Those are the real friend. And so I think it's really good to be able to have the opportunity to know that who are somebody you can keep in touch with.

12:07
So I want to know about, I think we talk about being with horses and being at the farm, what you really, really enjoy doing and things that you cannot really find that passion and joy in corporate anymore. Tell us a little bit more about other things you've learned that you haven't shared that you didn't learn when you're in your role as a VP or in corporate or in business school or in college before.  So one of the biggest shocks to me.

12:37
was I couldn't call the help desk and get support anymore for my technology. I had to figure everything out on my own.  the company I was in, like most companies, was a Microsoft shop. And I knew how Microsoft applications work, and I knew who to call. And because I was a VP, they would come to my desk right away and fix it. Suddenly, I'm on my own, and you don't want Microsoft on your own. You want Google Apps. And so I suddenly was plunged into having all these applications. I had no idea what they were, and no one there to help me. So that was a huge gl-

13:06
glass of cold water in the face when I first retired. But then, you the other things is it turns out that you're not, my experience is I'm not actually in control of my day as much as I thought. My image of this retirement is I'm gonna, you know, enjoy lazy days on the back porch and catch up on the pile of reading I wanna do and, you know, watch the horses gallop in the front.  No, it's five a.m. get up and clean the barn. It's the boys gotta go to school or to soccer. And then there's the grocery list to get done. Then the house needs to get cleaned. Then you gotta go to this appointment and that appointment.

13:35
Because my wife still works so I as the stay at home partner now, you know deal with all that and suddenly I found that what was supposed to be very leisurely day I get an hour or two a day that I'm actually in control of and so that fact that I actually had less freedom perhaps than I did when I was a boss that That one's taken me a while to get used to Oh because your expectation was thinking that you're gonna have all sudden all this time

13:59
but you still have so many responsibilities. But in some way that's actually pretty healthy because I just can't imagine somebody would just go golf all day and doesn't have to get up for certain things. I think it's good to have that structure still. Being able to get up to clean the farm and help out with the kids.  I think that probably help you feeling easier also getting into this new phase.

14:27
Yeah, the structure absolutely did. I also can be someone that if I don't have anything to do, I will Netflix all day long. But one of the things I did is I went and got the aura ring, which keeps track of my metrics. And I have this goal that I need to at least get my step count in every day. And it will obviously adjust like these things do about what the goal is. But I feel very strongly that I'm going to get that in and so that I'm moving and staying staying healthy. So

14:52
I do pay more attention to making sure I'm moving a lot, that I'm eating better, things like that. So yeah, that does provide the structure. And yeah, I, while I have less free time and the days are maybe more structured than they were, that's to your point, that's fine. It gives me a reason to get out of bed. The funny thing is I actually had yesterday the family's away. So it's just me as the chief master zookeeper on the farm this week. And I had absolutely nothing on the calendar yesterday. Absolutely nothing.

15:17
I could sleep in as long as I want. could do whatever I wanted. Right. No vacation for you. It was like a vacation. But here's the funny thing. The animals didn't care that I had nothing to do. Five o'clock they were waking me up to go take care of them. So there was no sleeping in.  The structure of my farm was get out of bed and go do something. And that was fine. Got me moving.  Oh, that's so good. Yeah. I feel like sometimes taking care of animal and kids, it does give us purpose and might be different kind of purpose.

15:46
Um, I really love what you share. And also I want to talk about this mind burn term that you invented.  say that you are experiencing this and made you realize that there needs to be a name for it. Can you tell us a little bit more about what this term mean and how would you come up with this term?  Yeah. So, so mind burn very simply is what happens when a very active and developed mind no longer has real problems to solve.

16:18
So, I'll give you an example of this. Someone that has, someone that's left their job or lost their job,  they're senior experienced person, they take another job that's below what their skill level is.  Well, the problem they had to solve was, I need a job to keep income going. That's a concrete problem, very action oriented, you can deal with that. But coming along with that, once you get into the new job, you're in something that maybe you're underutilized and your brain has got some spare time.

16:46
And so you start asking questions like, is this all there is? Is this my purpose in life? What's the meaning of me doing this? Why should I even bother to do this? You start to, mind burn is those unanswerable questions that if your mind doesn't have real problems to solve, it will create problems. And often those problems don't have a clear answer and they're not actionable. And you just start spinning on them. And that's what I call them mind burn. It's similar.

17:15
to biology in the body, there's something called autophagy, which is when cells are no longer being fed, they will start to consume themselves to give themselves energy.  And while this isn't scientific, this is my analogy that it's kind of like the brain. It's what I'm now calling cognitive autophagy, which is if your brain doesn't have real problems to solve, it will create problems and start to spin itself up. And these unsolvable problems, if you will,

17:44
are what will make you crazy, and that's what I call mind burn. Now, what I found is the antidote to that is get out and do something. Find a real problem to solve. I was working on a TED Talk that I wanted to do this year as part of my bucket list to do a TED Talk, and I was working on something, and so hard working on this talk, and at some point, it didn't work. It wasn't working. I had spent a month putting this thing together, and I just looked at it and said, this is just, it's not gonna work.

18:13
And I just spent two days spinning on that. Man, this is terrible. I can't possibly do this. Why am I even bothering? What's the point? I should have never left work. And then suddenly I walk out to the barn one day and our foal was born.  And it had just dropped out of mom and it been on the ground less than 10 minutes, still wet. And all of a sudden I become a horse nurse for the first time in my life. And so I, and my wife was traveling that week. I spent the next two days taking care of that.

18:42
newborn full. I'd never done that before. It was such a cool experience.  That mind burn I had about questioning myself immediately went away because I had a real problem to solve. There was a life I had to take care of and I didn't know what I was doing. My wife was texting me messages. You need to do this. You need to do this. I'm like, how do I do that? Quick Google. How do I do that? So so I'm doing all of these things to take care of the horse.  Totally focused on that experience. Here's the funny thing, Kim. When I about two days later,

19:11
I said, all right, let me try to tackle this TED Talk again. Came together. And it was largely around this mind burn concept. So I was spinning on something that wasn't real. And then there was something real to take care of it. And it snapped me out of it.  And so those are kind of two examples of where I think it is a smart brain that doesn't have a real problem to solve will make up a problem.

19:37
Yeah, so you think that's part of anxiety, like we humans develop this anxiety feeling and it just spiral and just keep going and then we really need to find a way to distract it.  Or like you say, find a real problem so that our anxiety is not spending on things that are not really emergency or things that we should be anxious about or is that not the same? So I have to give this disclaimer, I'm not a psychologist. this is not scientific. This is the opinion of John.

20:06
is that,  you know, in modern society,  we have developed our brains to deal with everything that comes at us. Whether it's you're an office worker or maybe even you're just a truck driver that's got a lot of windshield time and you get time to think.  We develop our minds to solve problems. It's part of how we've evolved as a species on this planet. And when suddenly there aren't problems, that's when we create them.

20:32
Are there forms of anxiety like this? Yeah, I think it's a cousin of this and mind burn is something that One way to distinguish it. It's solvable a 90-minute walk in the park and your mind burn goes away That's a solvable problem other anxiety is clinical and you need to get some help for that It's also kind of like rumination where again, you'll just keep spinning things over and over in your mind That it's kind of like that as well. So I recently ran a poll on LinkedIn

21:00
and to ask people what they regret. Do you regret what you did, what you didn't do, or what you should have done?  71 % of the respondents said they regret what they didn't do or what they should have done. That's kind of the thing about mind burn. You can't solve that problem. It's a moment that passed. You can't fix it. You can't change it. But if you keep spinning on it, you're probably experiencing some mind burn. If you spin on it too long, you probably need to get some help.  So there is a difference, I think, of...

21:28
Something you can take care of yourself versus something that's more serious and you need to get some help on.  Okay. That's a great differentiation. So I, I totally get what you're trying to say. And I really appreciate the example about taking care of nursing the baby horse. So, um, I feel like that's also what we talk about meditation. A lot of people say that like meditation does help because it kind of stopped our thoughts. There's been time I've been spinning thoughts about worries or about like just certain things about, I need to get this done.

21:58
But I couldn't at that moment. It's not in my control. But once I can just have some time to stop thinking about that thought, then all of sudden I'm like, Oh, that feels really good. Actually, it's not really that big of a deal. You know, when you go back to it, it's not that terrible. You can solve it. And it just sometimes just required be patient.  But like you said, get out, do something that get active or

22:21
find other things to do and find a real problem to solve.  So that's really interesting. I never heard of that.  So yeah, I can put a term on it. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, so again, that's what the Ted talk in November is going to be about. Okay. It will be a companion book that comes out. Hopefully if I can get it done before then to kind of explain it. Yeah. So also on my bucket list is to get something published. Yeah. And I think one of the mind burn again, it's a very narrow concept because I've had other folks say, well, that's great. I get mind burn when I go home at night and I haven't finished my to-do list.

22:50
That's not mind-burning. That's a solvable problem. You have a list of things you need to do.  The problem is, how do I get these things done? That's a solvable problem. Not, what's the meaning of life because I didn't get everything done today? That's not a solvable problem. Yet some people will spin on that. Oh yeah. Bigger question.  Yeah. Very interesting.  Okay. So let's go to talk about...

23:17
the what are some signs that people might be experiencing mind burns without realizing it.

23:25
So for me, and you used the word purpose earlier in the conversation, to me, and I'm probably going to offend some people that read this, but when I see someone asking what's the meaning of this, I need to find my meaning, I need to find my purpose, I need to find my Akagi, if you will, I get the point of view, but those are kind of vague things.  If you at the end of the day say, did I achieve my purpose today? Kind of a vague question that you maybe can or can't answer.

23:55
Different from, have goals of things I want to accomplish. I'm part of this charitable organization and we have these goals, we're have this fundraiser. You could say my purpose is to make this organization better or, which is again kind of a vague question, you don't know if it's better or not, versus we're gonna raise X amount of money so the organization can do that. That's something specific and concrete.  I think it's the concreteness of the issues that we're facing versus the abstractness of them.

24:23
The more abstract, the more likely it's not going to have a clear answer. And you're going to experience mind burn. Oh, I like it. So you're actually putting certain matrix or KPI, we call it, right? Like what we used to call on this. We don't talk about purpose is so abstract, but let's talk about what action behind that.  kind of bingo, got it. Yeah. You know, a great friend of mine, again, one those work colleagues that I didn't think I was going to stay in touch with, but we do.

24:53
He, very metrics driven, very high powered, I he would walk into the room and you could feel the energy and the excitement about getting things done.  Very metrics oriented, very business capable, he was an HR professional. Suddenly, and he retired, right? It was time, he was ready to go, he retired, and suddenly he had nothing to do, right? So he was someone who was driven by metrics, driven by process, and suddenly he's got nothing to do all day long. Well, he said, all right, I need something to do. Well,

25:20
Part of what he said is he wants to be now involved in the community and he lives in a beach town now and helping clean up the beach and keeping it a beautiful community.  Okay, that's good. Kind of a vague thing is the beach clean or not. He went a step further and he created a metric for himself which is the number of garbage bags he's filled. And the last time I talked to him, he was left with like 439 garbage bags that he had filled of stuff he'd picked up on the beach. So his purpose, yeah, I'm cleaning the beach if you want to use that.

25:50
but his metric and the tangible is how many bags of garbage has he cleaned off? And so he's found something he's likes, it's passionate, it's making a difference, but he's got a metric and the metric is what he can hold onto. And he loves telling me the number every once in while.  Yeah. And I love it. I think you're telling people the impact, right? If you just tell people, I cleaned the beach that people like, well, okay, what's that like? Maybe you tell people that, I fill up 300 bucks or 400 bucks. People are like, wow, that's a lot. Pretty impressive.  I, think.

26:18
Yeah. And the funny thing is when he says that I just imagined this big pile of garbage bags someplace that he's built.  Yeah. The beach must be really, really nice over there.  Yes.  That's so cool. So let's talk about why do you think that so many people, cause you did, you did a Lincoln poll and obviously these people have career or working or either looking for a job that they have career, they have good family, they have a good life and why they still wondering is this

26:46
All it is. And then you obviously have a family and have a great career as well. why, why is it that you all of a feel like you want something different? Like, and why is it other people also feel that way after they already achieve what they always target or aim for?  So, so I have two theories and again, I'm going to go back and remind everyone. I am not a psychologist. So this is John's opinion. Yes.  Um,  it's, it's, think two things. One, it's the, Hey,

27:16
as a survival instinct, we had to always be questioning our environment. always had to be head, as this phrase goes, head on a swivel looking around to make sure that the barracuda is not coming out of the woods someplace to eat us, right? So we always have to be doubting ourselves and our environment, and that's a basic survival instinct.  The second piece is really...

27:41
I kind of forgot it now. That's mind-burnt. I'm thinking about something that I forgot.  But yeah, I think that's just human nature. you say, it's a human nature.  Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really what it is. Yeah. For me, I just feel like the reason why I start this podcast, because I'm wondering the same thing. I feel like at some point also, like you said, that you kind of do something like having a horse and starting a horse farm. And then they kind of let you discover, I really like doing this more than...

28:10
my day job and you started just like,  what if I don't go and then pursue this route and continue this other way? I just don't longer feel passionate about what if I have regrets?  I don't, at least for me, feel like our life kind of lead us in a certain direction and make us start wondering.  Yeah. So Kim, think you, you, you caused me to remember. So thank you. It's, it's, I think one of the biggest problems we have in society right now is fear of missing out.

28:39
Right. And we always had it, you know, there was always the keeping up with the Joneses, but, know, that was just the people on your block that you looked at and who you hung out with. Now it's the entire world of social media of scrolling about, you know, hey, if you do these three things, you're to be miracle successful. The person sitting in the, in the jet with their glass of champagne, look at how wonderful I am and what a great life I have. Funny thing is about that. can actually rent a fake interior of an airplane for about 50 bucks an hour to get that same shot,  which lot of creators do.

29:08
So it's that fear of missing out that plays on us. And I think that's part of why the, this all there is? Am I not as successful? So I recently read the memoir of Tom Selleck and about as successful of an actor as you can possibly get, he through his entire career and even to this day has to remind himself, I am enough.  it's, I find it, the guys...

29:33
one of the best actors, he's won awards for it. I we all know shows that he'd done and so, but he himself has to remind himself, I am enough. And I think that's something that by that basic instinct, we have to keep reminding ourselves of that. And then social media just sort of yanks it right away from us and says, no, you're not enough because you need to be doing this, that or the other thing. Yeah, fair and missing out. Also,

29:55
These people are always trying to sell us something too. think we need to be reminded of like what they're trying to do, what's behind what they're trying to do.  But like you say, you are enough. Even people that we look up to, even people we look at them and say, how can you still feel that way? But as human,  it just never, we always feel like we need to be going back. There's always going to be somebody better in some way. Cause

30:20
Not every aspect of our life, or at least when we see other people's, it's on the outside, the shiny part. We don't see the messy part of their life on social media.  So for us, it's so easy to compare ourselves with the, like things that not really true. So I really like that point of view. Let's go into the viral itself. We talk about this identity that you wrote about, the version of us that build on other people's expectation. Looking back with their expectation that you carry for years that are actually somebody else, not yours.

30:53
There were, I guess,  expectations, not, you a lot of times expectations get put on us by family members. And I didn't have any of that really. think my parents just wanted me to do well,  but non-specific. So I don't think there's any of that, but there was in early days, early teens, I started to learn more about how business worked and would study business books. And I was a huge fan of Tom Peters back in the day.

31:22
It's like,  I've got to so this is what a business leader's like. This is what success is. And so, you know, I read everything in Fortune and Forbes and the Wall Street Journal and all that stuff. And that's what, that's what success was. And I won't be successful unless the chief executive or the chief information officer of an organization, you know. And so I put a lot of pressure on myself to perform.  Then also, I think there was a family situation a while back where there were expectations of a certain lifestyle, which brought about a certain.

31:51
level of income expectations.  And, and so I got a little bit trapped in, some of that. So I think they were things I put on myself based on FOMO before it was social media.  Yeah. And I, it sounds like you have a role model that you're, you found Tom Peter that you wanted to be like him. And that sounds like you just set him as somebody you want to become and that you borrow his.

32:21
you borrow his identity in some way that you see yourself in him in the future.  I wouldn't say I borrowed his identity.  was, Tom Peters created the whole in search of excellence, which in the 1980s sort of kicked off re-engineering organizations.  And he just recently retired. He was doing this for many, many decades, getting people excited to look at business in a different way. And I really was enthusiastic about that.

32:47
I'd also started my career right as IT was becoming a thing.  I started to join when PCs were just coming into the organization.  And so that of course created expectations. What is this new device? You want to spend all this money on this piece of steel? What's it going to do for us? And I think there was some of that.  And again, I just looked at these business leaders,  the image of the business leaders that were supposedly successful and tried to achieve that.

33:14
Okay, that's very interesting because you your parents did not put an expectation on you They just want you to do well Do you mind if I ask you what your parents do? Like what were their occupations? So I can just understand what it's like when you were growing up Yeah,  so dad worked for the court system He was a process server So let's say there was a papers that the court issued that needed to be served He was the one that would go out and do that Mom was a nurse She spent a lot of her career working in

33:44
the intensive care unit. she saw some of the worst of the worst accidents doing that. yeah, very, very necessary, humble, blue collar jobs that they threw themselves into and worked really, really hard to achieve their success. Yeah.  So growing up, you seen that those are the job you want to have in the future. Cause I know some kids when they grew up in a certain family, they don't want to be what their parents are.

34:13
or they don't want to live the way their parents live. That might not be the case for you, but is there any of that? Or is it just you found computer and that is something you love doing and that you go for it? So it was more that I had found computers and was learning about business, which is kind of different than what, very different than what they were doing. But I think it was really the computers and no one knew where it was going at the time.  So it was the early days of doing all sorts of stuff and you could get away.

34:43
with all sorts of stuff, not knowing what's going on. So it also was a way to, by being the computer nerd in high school, it was a way to be different than everyone else. And I think that kind of helped. But my style is also to be a cautious assumer of leadership. I will enter a situation and just sit and absorb it for a while. But once I understand what's going on, then I need to be...

35:11
taking in charge of the organization. And I was doing the same sorts of things of just using computers to go in and observe and watch. And then, okay, here's what we can really do and try to assume a more, a stronger leadership position.  Okay, well, thank you for sharing that with me. I feel like I understand a little bit more what you mean by how your borrowed self came.

35:32
Um, one thing I really appreciate about your story is that you didn't just walk away.  you mentioned you build a bridge first. So you started with real estate, horse farm. Um, what are some practical steps that you would like to recommend other people? They are thinking about, is this, oh, it is. What can I do to build that bridge? What, what are some practical steps you can share with them? So I'd say there's two, two things. One is we've, and we've been talking about this is what's the mental aspect of, of.

36:00
stepping away from what you've got. That's actually the harder of the two things. What are you going to do with your time when you don't have a job and a boss? And as much as we will complain about the boss, having some structure and someone is giving you feedback is something you don't appreciate until you don't have it. So I think that's important. But the financial aspect of it is, I think, real important to look at the end of the day. We've all got bills to pay. We've got to put food on the table. We do like to take vacations sometimes. And so how do you do that?

36:27
You know some people get lucky and they bought Bitcoin at a dollar and now they're selling it and you They got more money than they need right some people do that and great great for them most of us have to save and So part of it is for me. It was saving living very conservative life for example if I'm given a choice of going to Starbucks or getting a homebrewed cup of Folgers coffee I'm going for the Folgers coffee right so it's the hey I can save that money for something else and

36:52
It's lowering expectations. What's the lowest that you can survive on that you feel comfortable with? So we can all survive on less, but it's what you feel comfortable with.  making choices about what you're going to do. I'd love to own a boat, but I don't want to own a boat because of the cost of owning a boat. Right. We've talked about getting a camper and traveling to country. Interesting idea. Super expensive to do. So no, we're not going to do that.  So

37:18
Part of what my wife and I did is we made an agreement. We will only spend big money on things that generate cash.  It doesn't have to pay for itself necessarily, but it will generate cash. So that's how we got into the rental business to see,  yeah, rental properties are things that can appreciate in value, but we like to buy a broken property, fix it up, get a good family in there, and let them enjoy the property after we fixed it up.  So that was part of it is creating

37:46
cash flow. There's Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad Poor Dad and the cash flow quadrant.  that I think is real important to make sure that you've got the cash flow. But also I've learned an awful lot. Ten years ago if you'd ask me to pick up a hammer I'd say great give me the checkbook let me write a check to someone to go do that.  Now my favorite shopping trip is to Lowe's or Home Depot to go buy a new tool.  So it's learning some new skills. was again a financial bridge to where we're going but also having extremely low expectations so

38:16
A phrase I love is the less you need, the faster you get there by lowering your expectations and what you need, the faster you can achieve it. Yeah. I mean, I think we'll be surprised that when we have so much that we don't actually enjoy everything. I know that people like to buy a lot of things and they just pile up in the garage and they don't have time or they don't have the energy to re-enjoy it. They just buy things and we don't really need that much. And I really like that you saying

38:44
that we don't need to buy everything that just because other people have it, like a boat or all that, because honestly, like then you will have to maintain it. Then you have to take vacation to really use that thing so that you feel like you're getting your money worth, but it's your lifestyle going to be like, it's not generating cash and it's going to appreciate. So it's like people buying really nice car for you. It's like, it also get you from point A to point B was the point of getting a very nice car. doesn't.

39:13
Um, yeah, there's a lot of trade off. had to work your, you had to work so many more just to pay that off or if to afford it.  So, yeah, I, and it's interesting a couple of things, but so, you know, and being in the real estate business, I'm actually dressed up pretty well today. Usually I have a shirt on, it's got paint splotches and green splotches on it and a baseball hat that's all messed up. Yeah. Um, but it's fun. I've met an awful lot of people like that, that you'd walk down the street and maybe not even give them a second look.

39:42
And as I get to talk to these people, A, they're really smart and engaging people, and B, they're some of the most wealthy people you're ever gonna know.  you look at them, you're like, really? But I met a guy on a plane a couple years ago flying out to California. He had just recently retired after 43 years in an aluminum mill. And this is a guy that dirty, gritty, hard, dangerous work, 43 years doing this to raise his five kids.

40:10
And he was telling me about all the properties that he bought with the money that he saved, that he's now giving these properties to his kids, that they don't have to buy the first house. He's giving it to him because of what he did. You know, this is a guy who worked really hard,  who lived, who sacrificed himself to create wealth for his family. You know, and there's a lot of stories like that out there. So again, it's the less you need, the faster you get there. His story is a great one. He didn't need a whole lot.

40:38
but he wanted to make sure he took care of his kids and he worked really hard in one of the most dangerous places you can work. Oh, that's so admirable. And I love that delayed gratification as well. Like you put your money where it's growing instead of put your money where it's not, you say, generating cash, right? it's not generating cash, then it's a no.  And by the way, some people would say horses. Are you kidding? That doesn't generate cash.

41:02
Right?  They are expensive. Now, having them on our farm, so literally right on the other side of my monitor is my barn, and it's a lot less expensive than boarding them someplace else. But the other thing is, because of what we do, we breed horses and we are horse trade, old school horse traders, we've made a business out of it.  So, and when I say you have to have something that generates cash, it doesn't always have to pay for itself, but at least have to have a cash generating component.

41:31
And that's sort of a rule that we've lived by now rental real estate. We've been very successful in making sure that it pays for itself. Um, because you can do that horses some years we break even some years we make a profit some years we lose money, but every year it's generating cash for us.  Yeah. And then you're also enjoying doing it. It's the passion. There's passion behind it. And then, so for you is that, you know, people, got a good reputation of what you're.

41:58
farm is and then it will eventually people will appreciate it. They will come, but it's the passion right behind that people appreciate knowing that what you put in it.  let's talk about this question that I really, really want to know is if you could sit down with yourself 10 years ago, what is something you would tell him that he wouldn't want to hear? So I love that question because my answer is I wouldn't do it.

42:25
And here's the reason, right? I love it as a question comes up. I see it on LinkedIn all the time. What would you tell your 25 year old self? Well, the answer is you wouldn't understand it, right? I'm almost 60 years old. If I were to tell myself at 50 something, I wouldn't understand it because I didn't have that 10 years of experience. And so again, this might be a mind burden question, right? What would you tell yourself? Well, the answer is whatever you would say wouldn't make any sense to younger you. So I love the question and I won't answer it.

42:55
You're you don't want to get it. let's, let's not even talk about it.  Love that honest answer. So let's talk about this question. I asked all the guests that come to my show is you achieve a level of success that many people have spent their entire life chasing. What does enough mean to you today? What does that look like to you today? So enough means that.

43:24
my family is healthy and taken care of and that we're able to pay the bills and get through a day and that, you know, I am largely, you know, despite the fact that I have a very structured day, it's just me and the family that is deciding what I do. So for me, that's it. You know, I don't buy the fanciest clothes. I don't need the fanciest car. I need stuff that works. You know, I...

43:47
I used to drive a Mercedes, I drive a pickup truck now. I can't pull a horse trailer in a Mercedes. And oh, by the way, if I threw a hay bale in the back of a Mercedes, I'd never get it cleaned again.  This is probably one of the fanciest shirts that I've worn in a long time. TJ Maxx, right? Most of my t-shirts come from Tractor Supply. So I don't need big fancy stuff.  for me, another piece of enough is I'm not a very big social person.

44:13
I'm happy if I've got a couple of close friends and hang out with family.  That's enough for me. Very simple, yeah. Yeah. And if I get to wake up tomorrow morning, that's enough too. I know. I heard this every day is a gift.  And if we can just be appreciative that we are living right now, we're breathing right now, and all we have is just being healthy. That is good enough. I feel like sometimes we don't know what we have is already enough until we lose them. And they'll be like,

44:42
I'll trade, I'll trade with all my money to get that back, but it's too late. Sometimes some people work to the bone and they don't have their health anymore. They suddenly realize that's really all they need. All they really, really have is then they can be enough.  I feel like we have so much in common in terms of like finances, how we feel about needs and wants and how we can just appreciate the simple things. Cause if we don't appreciate what we have, then more than what we have.

45:12
outside of that. It's not going to make us happy because we're just going to want more.  Yeah, no, that's exactly it. More is more. And I often think that less is more. Yeah. And that's enough. Let's talk about the last question for somebody that's listening right now. How can they find you? know you're on LinkedIn and you also write.  how can they find you?  LinkedIn is the primary way. I do have a couple of books on Amazon.

45:38
Right now and probably more that are that are coming out but LinkedIn is the primary way always open to new connections love to have conversations with different folks That's how you and I met and I'm getting to meet a lot of really cool people around Well, one of the folks that I did not know 18 months ago is now one of my better friends and he lives in Helsinki that what you know a year and a half ago I didn't know who he was. So it's it's an interesting experience.  So yeah, LinkedIn's a great way to get a hold of me Okay, I'll put your link in link in the show now

46:05
So I just want to close and say, John, this is such a great conversation. I learned a lot from you since you're a senior leadership. And then now you're living this different,  simple life that you choose and you enjoy. And I think what stood out to me is your story. It's not really about leaving a career or buying a horse car.  It's about paying attention to what's something that no longer fit and having the courage to support that come next. So I appreciate your thoughts about mind burn because I think a lot of people is experiencing that feeling, but it doesn't know.

46:35
what the name or how to put a feeling or the term to it. So thank you so much for sharing your story. And I am really looking forward to your new book that is coming out in November and your 10 talk.  Yeah, Kim, it's been a pleasure. really appreciate you reaching out and spending a couple of minutes with me today. Really. Thank you. Thank you, John.

46:56
You can connect with John Connors on LinkedIn and I have included his information in the show note. I will also love to hear from you. If there's a topic you would like us to explore, a story you would love to share,  or you will be interested in being interviewed for the podcast,  visit freedomofenough.com. You will find all the details in the show note. And if you're enjoying the podcast,

47:25
One of the best ways to support me is by leaving a review on your favorite podcast app.  Review help more people discover these conversations and help the show continue to grow.  Thank you for spending this time with me.  I hope today's conversation encourages you to think a little differently about success,  fulfillment, and what truly matters.  And I will see you next Tuesday.

47:54
Remember,  the world will always ask for more,  but you get to decide what enough looks like.